Tuesday, December 10, 2013

Milviz, Prepar3D v2, EULA and you!

P3Dv2. If you have been wanting some clarity regarding Milviz and their stance regarding Prepar3D and its complex EULA, Creative Director, Colin Pearson, has finally shed some clarity on the company's stance and their direction regarding the platform. Long story short, good times ahead for those of us who are fans of both Milviz and P3D. This shows yet another positive step forward to P3D on behalf of the development community. What you can expect however, as the other aircraft developers have had to do, is purchase separate products for v2. There is just no way around this and I am sure users will understand. Check out what Colin had to say.


Note from Colin:

"...A word on P3D V2 compatibility and our EULA.

As of this moment, if you wish to use any of our existing products in P32D v2, that's ok. (if you already own them). However, from this point onwards, as we make new installers for our products, that EULA will change. 

P3D V1.4 and FSX will be considered one platform and P3D V2 and onwards will be considered a separate platform and theref...ore, product line from FSX. 

This is due to the fact that work is ongoing in the P3D SKU but not so in the FSX SKU. This will allow us to add further functionality to our products (a good thing) but also means that we now have to supply two product streams and support both... (a bad thing... maybe?)

Yes, this means that you will have to pay twice for the "same" aircraft on two different platforms.

I am still looking at pricing concerns if you want both... 

Just as an FYI, other major devs are going to be doing the same thing and it's no surprise.

As time passes, we will be upgrading each of our products to be P3D V2 native. When that happens, the product page for each will change as will the EULA for it.

We will be implementing the changes necessary to prevent anyone from using P3D V2 with a P3D V1.4/FSX product in P3D V2.

I know some of you will be upset and though you might consider your "anger/frustration/rage" justified, this is not the place to vent. Any and all "venting" will be deleted and banned.

That said, constructive criticisms or comments are welcome."

Colin Pearson.
Creative Director
Military Visualizations


I also want to reiterate to readers here on ADX: Any and all "venting" will not be published on ADX and as always, constructive criticisms or comments are always welcome.
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35 comments:

fridberg said...

Maybe a stupid question but. What is the difference between P3D 1.4 and P3D 2.0?

DAndre Newman said...

They are officially considered separate platforms. Like FS9 and FSX are separate platforms.

As for the difference it's mostly coding and many new/different features between the two.

Joe Park said...

and so the fun begins :)

Todd said...

Colin's position is fair and I appreciate the heads up. As I move exclusively to P3Dv2, this won't be as big a deal for a lot of folks like myself as it will be for others. It shouldn't surprise us that P3Dv2 will be considered a different platform than P3Dv1.4, since developers will be able to take advantage of many features (like DX11) that P3Dv1.4 and FSX don't offer. The same was true when FSX was released and we had to buy separate addons for FSX . The FSX product was so much more refined and often had more features because of what could be achieved with FSX over FS9.

I respect MilViz and truly believe they are very much on the rise in terms of quality and functionality. I am looking forward to the King Air 350, which I think will set a new benchmark on what can be achieved in P3D.

Todd

Mitch Spenser. said...

poor milviz trying to make another buck on their half decent products..I don't get how pretentious they are, I mean their addons are miles and miles away from the quality of PMDG or FSLAB. mivilz's products are basic and inferior in all realism aspects, much like carenado's.

Flyer said...

I would never buy a product that is

almost 100% equal

from the technical point of view full price for both platforms.
On the other hand I am willing to buy an reasonable update price for P3D

but

never again full price. This is dangerous for the community as it keeps people from buying P3d and certainly LM needs a fair amount of customers otherwise we will see vanish this platform as fast as MSFlight which was notorously unsuceesful.

DAndre Newman said...

Already I deleted 2 comments. Again: Any and all "venting" comments will not be published this includes inflammatory. You are simply wasting your time if you continue to do so....

Rick frost. said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Dave Nicoll said...

MMMmmmmm...If we now have to purchase all our favourite add ons again makes me think LM should have just bitten the bullet and gone down the 64 bit route as we will have to do that if and when as well...

Andreas said...

Yes, exactly! There goes that argument. Still I'm moving to P3D at some point in the future but it REALLY sucks that I have to re-buy so many add-ons :(

whisper said...

well i have to agree the difference is to small to pay for it being a new project.. and p3d is not 64bit i have the fear that when they upgrade we have to start over again.. but then i understand a new project.. but here it´s partly a project.. as i can see, as it´s a way of improving some of the stuff that p3d has changsed... i have ported old a old plane over it´s not perfect but close to even it´s older then NGX and such plaes..

You can ban me for this if you want it dosent changse my point on it and others to. it´s there dessision and thats it i just dont go that way..to purchase all planes from day 1 again.. i dont have money for that as well

Todd said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
737freak said...

Couldn't agree more!

Why can't people treat these new platform development like when we went from FS9 to FSX.
Migrating from FSX to P3Dv2 is very similar when it comes to the addon-market. Like it has been for the last 10 years: same basic technology + more features + more refinement + new addons.

I would even go as far as calling FSX 'the new FS9'.

The parallels are there:
2007

Old platform - FS2002
Dominant platform - FS9
Future platform - FSX

2013

Old platform - FS9
Dominant platform - FSX
Future platform - P3D

We are going to see more and more P3D-only features in addons, just like we had FSX-only features a few years ago. Eventually, we will start seeing P3D-only addons and before you know it, the FSX users will start begging for an FSX version of that particular addon.

Exiting times are upon us, gentlemen…

ALX WNT said...

If we're gonna pay twice for V1.4 and V2, i want 64 bit version, simple is that.

OR, I simply continue to use FSX/P3D V1 (which i'm gonna do) and dont bother with buggy, GPU Killer V2 until it properly supports Sli and 64bits aka OOM free version.

Any purchase for V2 only is a dead purchase.

Why ?

1. No 64 bit, means you're gonna have a bad time with more and more addons
2. No Sli (While this is not about devs, it's about sim itself.)
3. No info about what's gonna happen when they released 64 native. (Perhaps ''Eh you know it's different sim as well, so pay up'' LOL not 3 times)

I really support LM and P3D and switching GPU intense sim, but without Sli support it's useless and kills the mood.

And i dont want to pay same thing 3 times please, do it for 64 native and i'm sold.

PS: Devs should also consider little lisencing fees (so-called upgrades example, if you have FSX addon which cost 30 bucks, you should get V2 with 10 bucks additional fee etc.) instead of re-selling from 30 again.

With all due respect Milviz addons are not complex as PMDG to be paid 2 or even 3 times when 64native released. I like Milviz but we should be realistic about this (I also know this will be standard for other devs as it's mentioned in announcement)

Rick frost. said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Td Avart said...

If I have to re-purchase scenery as well this will effectively stop me from moving to P3D. Just too expensive.

CGaft said...

P3Dv2 is not worthing to upgrade yet! Just read Kosta's blogg & you'll see how much it's under-performing FSX, he's done some real interesting tests!

Arnon said...

Just a side comment for all those who believe that 64bit would make things much better. As a developer I have to make it clear that 64 bit would not make things faster. The main thing it would do is allow for more accessible memory to a single process. It also makes most c++ code simply use a lot more memory for the same tasks. It would also.be instantly incompatible with all existing add ons.

P3d is not limited by memory today. Not really. One major limitation is not sufficiently multi-core ready. There are many ways that they can take advantage of more memory and more cores. For instance, partitioning the platform on multiple processes. Some add ons already do so by running the flight model outside the platform. Many things can be off loaded separate processes. Act, voice recognition, flight g http models, weather models and on and on.

Having said that, it delicate work - especially if they want to maintain backwards compatibility. They have lots to.consider and decide on if they want to.make a major leap forward. They made a lot of progress by finally taking advantage of the gpu. That is quite big. I don't know why people are taking it for granted. What they achieved in this release is quite a lot. Give them a break. They need to stabilize, recruit add on makers and users, stabilize the new platform. Lots of work.

It is our turn now. Show them there is a community that is dedicated and realistic and does not expect the world for free. Another major move will take time. Get your wallet out. Pay $200. Be positive. Give helpful feedback. Enjoy the SIM. Learn something. Let them work on it.

If you don't have the patience then go play angry birds. People, consider yourselves lucky that someone picked up the platform.

Just my 2c

Ggi said...

I read Kostas blog, however all I know is I am getting a significant improvement in frame rate in P3D2 over FSX.

George LGAV said...

It doesn't worth buying all the addons again.

It's simply more economical to buy a super fast rig and optimise FSX that to start all over again.

Fighting for the 99% said...

I get way better FPS in V2 then in FSX, KRNT with heavy Rex clouds,ORBX PNW and the Carenado P46T 8FPS in FSX. In V2 I get in the mid 20's using the same addons. It's 100% worth the upgrade my Milviz B55 works great in V2 and I get 45 FPS while in FSX I get around 25. P3d v2 actually makes use of my GTX770 where as FSX doesn't which mean great FPS

Rob Whight said...

Think this is a great summary of the situation. Ultimately, we can all choose.

I'm pleased our collective outlet is taking a step forward and I am grateful to LM for this step (and I look forward to many more). I've purchase my V2 and, over time, I'm sure I will add to it. In the interim, I'll continue to put food on the table for the kids, keep the boss lady happy and keep a roof over our heads ..... and enjoy what is a fantastic hobby.

Well done LM and please keep going :-)

Rob

Hotdog said...

Most of us have tested it for ourselves. I respect Kosta's blog, but I like seeing for myself.

Hi said...

ADX shouldn't be putting prepared on a 1st place. Though it has been improved it is still an upgraded version of FSX and nowhere near completion. If we academic users, lol, should pay for each freaking update then that's BS. It's an update and you can get pretty much all updates for free. If they would have rebuild the engine and make pimped up FSX become a 64bit version then I can imagine you paying for that but not if you paid for it the first time because that's just taking money from your customers who pay you your bread and butter and is just unheard. Then we have the developers who also are going to charge their customers, who have been customers for years and would like to switch, extra money to use their already bought planes/scenery. Not all of them will do so but PMDG for sure will. With all that said I really wonder why everyone is so excited over prepared as it's just FSX but now has shadows (X-Plane has that too) and some other features and has a EULA which clearly states what it states. Prepared can be compared to new wheels and rims, they were already attached to your car but now it looks a bit better. I'm not a hater but I'm just not getting all this prepared excitement over something that is just a pimped up version of what most of us already own

CGaft said...

P3Dv2 doesn't utilize the GPU as people think...not even the Titan makes a difference...Cerenado & Milviz B55 are FPS friendly...what about when you put in PMDG? you'll see!
I'm not supporting P3Dv2 w my money yet, it's like $1000 + for all the addons...but I do understand that you who bought it want to drag in more customers so that the P3D won't stagnate!

pseudonym said...

it's not that anyone is ungrateful for LM to have picked up the sim business or the fact that 64-bit/sli may or may not enhance the simming experience, it's the thought of having to pay for all our add-ons again every time they come out with an update. May as well wait for the next version that's 64-bit/sli capable before jumping ship. If developers want to charge in full again to use products in an updated P3D, who cares about backwards compatibility?

Sid said...

I have to agree, I'm very sorry to say. And I will have to consider the same as you suggest. I'm not paying FULL (and that is the key) for something I can live without from developers like Milviz who are good and I'd like to support but not THAT good (and hardly anyone is for my use) that I'll compromise my principles as a customer in expecting fairness (which doesn't neccesarily always mean 'free'...can mean small upgrade path/fee), less arrogance in thinking customers need them, and strong corporate censorship (though I'm pleased to say 'constructive feedback' is always welcome and allowed here on ADX which is why it stands out from some other unnamed forums). That, unfortunately is my feedback at this time and my opinions are my own, formed after considering matters from many different consumer and developer perspectives (even though it may not seem apparent on the face of things) and they are unchangeable by the arguments of those who disagree. I equally respect they have their own unchangeable opinions and thoughts. These are my personal conclusions. As I am NOT HOPING (fingers crossed) to wait as long as 2 years, for instance, to upgrade to P3D v2 but do intend to continue with FSX for now, for several reasons, I will not be buying FSX versions from Milviz at FULL price. I do understand that when P3D platform does become so different as 64 bit etc and developers have to completely build add-ons from scratch for the different platform, rather than make some changes (not COMPLETE rebuilds), that I may have to reassess and accept a more FULL COMPLETE price. But that is some time away and I would hopefully not require backwards compatibility then. I have read all the above arguments in great detail, reflected on them but they do fall short my my principles of justification for a full price. I do wonder if PMDG will take 2 to 3 years to rebuild from scratch their 737 and 777 models for P3D v2 and then again for v3?! If they do, then I suppose a FUL price and not a discounted UPGRADE price would be justified. Though I very much doubt that that is what they are planning. In the end, I can live without things and will happily do so if they make no consumer sense or worthy use for me. To conclude, I would love to support all ethical developer outfits (Orbx has to date always been one such example, though by no means the only one, as many many others also exist today). And I will support them accordingly. That is only my stance and opinion based on my own uses, needs and consumer principles.

Thank you for allowing me expression of my feedback on this issue ADX (which I hope you would but don't mind if you don't guys...as my opinions are my own, as is my stance, and what I have expressed is only for the benefit of feedback to the developer/s considering this if it is useful to them to want feedback).

Thanks again guys,
All the best and her's to supporting as many devs as possible.

Sid

Sid said...

P.S. And I only mention it because I was about to buy the 407 and had lined up the Kingair and however good they look, its not worth me buying either of them for FSX now and again paying full price shortly afterwards just for version 2 of P3D. Version 3 is likely to be a different story. So the medium-term decision for me personally is to see what developers do and then either hold of on P3D version 2 licences of companies like Milviz who take this position or to skip Version 2 altogether if the najority follow this stance. Its simple really and I'm sure that it won't take long to see where things go in order to make the decision to stick with what I have for FSX and continue with vendors producing addons for the platform or to move to an intermediate version 2 as it matures or to skip it entirely to move to what should be a proper new platform, possibly to be version 3 or whatever name it is given. I'm certainly in no way going to be stupid and pay for all the same addons 2 or 3 times at FULL price. That's all. Thanks again guys for the opportunity to let devs know feedback and good luck and wishes for great enjoyment to those who will invest 2 or 3 times as it is obviously worth it for them. Wish them all the best too :-) Thank you,
SId

DAndre Newman said...

"...nowhere near completion" neither is FSX. Everyone keeps obviously forgetting how unstable FSX is. I hate to say this, but remembering FSX users who attacked FS9 folks for not upgrading are starting to sound just one and the same.

Peter Hobbs said...

I think this statement could be painful for Milviz ,I mean I was waiting for a couple of there aircraft but no longer,what ever anyone say,s it does not make sense for me to purchase Fsx / P3d only and P3dV2 only aircraft,Anything I purchase Must and Will fly in all sims or I wont purchase it simple isn't it ,all the best Milviz

Unknown said...

Then you won't be buying pmdg either. Or a2a. Or just about anyone else's products. They'll all be doing the same. Your mistake is that you consider p3d v2 as the same as fsx. It's not. And the further down the road we go, the less it will be "like" anything....

Unknown said...

So I have to ask this: does this mean that the products have to work in DCS and x-plane too? All for the same price? Does Ubisoft and EA have to make a game that works on ps4, Xbox one, pc and all the rest and only charge you for one? Is that it?

pseudonym said...

Actually, you brought up a good example. EA released Battlefield4 for $60 in October. Of course they were aware of the fact that PS4 and XBox One were coming out very soon, so they allowed current generation console owners to upgrade to the next generation consoles for only $10 (bf4 costs $60) when they those consoles came out. That seems reasonable to me.

Peter Hobbs said...

Aerosoft ,Ifly, majestic ,Orbx,Canenado ,Lionheart etc (apologies to anyone I missed) all very good developers to name a few,if the above companies can give you ALL that extra work to convert to P3d V2 ie mainly supply an installer ,what make,s any other dev think they can charge for what other,s are willing give for nothing just good will,,Lets face it no disrespect to milviz they aint pmdg ,,pmdg have stated they will dev a pro Sim that will justify it price LOL and people will pay the £80+ happily or will they?,what i find strange is that after all the "we will charge more for P3d V2 aircraft because it is a diff sim /platform " is that one of the best aircraft i have flown in P3d v2 is the freeware C47 by MJ over at SOH,Absolutely a terrific aircraft which I just tried in P3d v2 to see if it was still as good as when flown on FSX or P3d it is! ,so if P3dv2 is a diff sim /platform whatever how come lots of freeware aircraft I have tried just work in P3d v2 ,I do not expec it to work in Xplane that would very very stupid to think or suggest ,simply put there can not be much diff in the requirements for FSX ,P3d,P3dv2 aircraft or my freeware would not work in P3d v2 would it

Peter Hobbs said...

Aerosoft ,Ifly, majestic ,Orbx,Canenado ,Lionheart etc (apologies to anyone I missed) all very good developers to name a few,if the above companies can give you ALL that extra work to convert to P3d V2 ie mainly supply an installer ,what make,s any other dev think they can charge for what other,s are willing give for nothing just good will,,Lets face it no disrespect to milviz they aint pmdg ,,pmdg have stated they will dev a pro Sim that will justify it price LOL and people will pay the £80+ happily or will they?,what i find strange is that after all the "we will charge more for P3d V2 aircraft because it is a diff sim /platform " is that one of the best aircraft i have flown in P3d v2 is the freeware C47 by MJ over at SOH,Absolutely a terrific aircraft which I just tried in P3d v2 to see if it was still as good as when flown on FSX or P3d it is! ,so if P3dv2 is a diff sim /platform whatever how come lots of freeware aircraft I have tried just work in P3d v2 ,I do not expec it to work in Xplane that would very very stupid to think or suggest ,simply put there can not be much diff in the requirements for FSX ,P3d,P3dv2 aircraft or my freeware would not work in P3d v2 would it

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