Direct YouTube video link - click here
Link to applicable page of official preview thread - click here
Video description per Finn as posted on the official Aerosoft Twin Otter Extended preview thread:
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Here is the first video in a row showing what t---o expect from the Twin Otter Extended.
The first video will demonstrate the startup sequence following the checklist..
Note!
I´m not a professional in making videos and definitly not being a narrator, thus no commentary has been added.
I have tried, as far as I was able, to point on the checklist for each item done.
Next video will continue from where this one ends, demonstrating the run-up checks.
Hope You will enjoy.....
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27 comments:
Aerosoft forum does not accept critical posts or posts that are not made by some fanboys not knowing like the real thing works. So i post it here.
If Aerosoft makes big announcements about real startup sequence simulation quality, it is again wrong.
Within seconds i detected:
- FSX default Kingair sound, why? Thats wrong
- Prop lever FWD before starter engage, why?
Thats wrong
- Startup peak of ~80% CG RPM, why? Thats wrong
Startup peak of Prop RPM ~95%,why? Thats wrong
- T5 peak behavoir unrealistic fast, why?
That is exactly that what i expected from aerosoft own "simulations". Like the Bronco i do not want to take a deeper look into that simulation, because this "simulation" has lost within seconds.
Again and again the same, addon by addon. You see a an apparently continuous product quality difference between (A2A,Dodosim,MarcelFelde,Majestic,PMDG) and all the others. This seems to be constant since month and years.
Too bad but exactly as expected for me. Sorry Aerosoft.
I like it.
I am not a pilot so, I can't judge the quality of the systems and the behaviour of the plane, but I see quite effort and serious work here to get it. Surely there will be uptdades in future to fix things.
Of course the Felde PC-6 will be better, I supose, but I like this one too.
1. Sounds will change - NOTE!! it is still in beta, and sorry, but the sounds are not from the King Air.
2. According to the realworld checklist,as well as feedback from our realworld Twi Otter pilots, Propeller lever is set full forward BEFORE start.
3.The peaking Prop RPM as well as Ng is a known issue we "MIGHT" fix.
4. Honestly - the price for the addons are also on another level as the addons You compare the Twin Otter against.
Finn Jacobsen
(Aerosoft developer)
Thanks Finn,
Your #4 statement hopefully is included in the final product discription. "Tested by real pilots"," Realistic Startup Proc", "Realistic Sytem failures upon random failures or input foults or wear" i do not want to read". "Simulated some static failure processes" would be realistic and honest.
So it is not your/Aerosoft´s target to provide "advanced" simulation addons presently? Why not? There are so much real aviators and advanced simmers using more and more high quality addons - they want to pay good money for professional products. With wrong product discriptions who do not keep their promises - Flight Simulation programms are not taken seriously from real aviation personel. These who are not informed about the flight simulation market maybe never touch again any software due to wrong product informations.
Kind regards
We have real Twin Otter pilots on our beta testing team, so yes we can say "tested by real world pilots", but I guess that doesn´t mean that an addon is 100% realistic - I guess non are.
"Realistic startup proc" means that You need to set the right switches and controls in the right sequence for starting the engines, not necesarrily that the gauges will give You 100% correct readings, though ofcourse we strive to achieve comming as close to those as possible.
The failures we simulated are caused by overtorque, overtemp, simulated ice ingestion or caused by a hotstart. I don´t regard any of those as simple random failures.
Though You might not regard us as the best developers, I have enough inside to see where even the mentioned other developing companies makes shortcuts. So don´t think that any of those are 100% replicas of their real world counterparts either.
I need to emphasise that no one are forced to buy our addons - some people seem to forget.
Finn Jacobsen
(Aerosoft developer)
Good Statement, Finn!
And no, i'm definitel NOT a fanboy, I just buy what I want to have and not just because it's made by Aerosoft.
But the Twin Otter Extended will be definitely a first day purchase for me...
You cannot expect a perfect 100% replication, but I have to admit I was expecting a little better than this, even if this is WIP...
The real start up of a Twin Otter is like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oROxJQHBfdo
Note that the prop levers are not forward at all, the engines do not surge at all...
Hmm...
Yea the sounds are my only problem with it, but i have confidence aerosoft will change that. If not them, hopefully the guy that did the new sound pack for the airbus extended......you know...... the one that made Aerosoft's original Airbus Sounds, seem cheap.
Day one purchase for me too, dont listen to the trolls, they go nuts here because AirdailyX allow anom posts
Finn,
no addon developer for FSX is ever able to reach 100% of simulation. But there are the ones who have their own internal quality demand higher than others.
You gave me my answer before. "Your Twin Otter will be another price segment than the others". It seems that the price decides about the quality of the "needles".
I wonder how a project that currently "only" is in Beta can be downrated right away.
I did not say that we wouldn´t fix the peaking needles - actually as we speak they have been fixed.
Aerosoft also sell the higher priced addons and believe me when I say that it´s not the segment that will make You rich.
We develope for the broader market, but still add more features to our projects than comparable priced adons done by others.
As I have told - sounds will change. the current ones You hear in the videos are only placeholders.
The twin Otter Extended will come with it´s own loadmanager, Flight dta recorder that outputs to Googlæe Earth, engine failure and complete icing simulation (window icinh, ice ingestion, structural ice build up etc..
The engine modeling has been heavily tweaked inorder to reflect the right behaviour of the PT6A engines, but I don´t claim it to be a 100% recreation.
Finn Jacobsen
(Aerosoft developer)
There is a difference between trolling and people referencing proper procedures.
The real startup doesn't have prop levers forward! Do you hold your foot down on the gas pedal when you start your car?
Prop lever is very different to a gas pedal.
Perhaps you did not know this?
Regarding propeller lever position during startup....
This seems to be airline dependent.
The realworld checklist that we have available, tells to set prop levers full forward for startup.
Excuse me, but the prop levers does not make up the gaspedals of a car, their purpose and functioning is quite different.
Normally the propler blades will be feathered when the engines are shut down regardless of prop lever position.
Starting the engines, with propeller levers full forward, will make them unfeather as the propellers gain RPM, thus reducing engine torque before reaching full idle prop RPM.
Finn Jacobsen
(Aerosoft developer)
Makes me laugh all these ppl bashing a software still in beta..!
Half of you probably dont know how to open notepad, let alone start typing code and LVARS...
We all asked for a modern remake of the original Twotter..aerosoft deliver, because they listen to there customers, and you lot still want to shoot them down...Gents, get a grip, your ''throw the dummy out the pram'' attitude makes us all look like 5 year olds throwing a tantrum because we cant have a chocolate bar...thats not the image this hobby needs to be giving out..
So sit down, shu.....be quiet.
Untill it is released as a finished product..you have absolutly nothing to moan about.
If you build a car from scratch, you get the engine fitted and running..whitch is what we see here..
Once the car is finished, we can begin tuning the motor...same applies here poeple
From my experience, FINN is highly talented at doing what he does, and delivers what he says he will, so give the man a break..
Hi Finn,
thanks for information, but i know the real PT6 system a little bit. ;-)
MadDowZ,
that is no bashing, these are questions and findings due to the first possibility to see the system modeling. Got no prior informations about it. It is developers decision how this developement gets pesentated for public. In this case there was the Lukla and the startup video. My impressions are made. My post is based on what i have seen and what my own expirience is from past products over month and years.
First...
Here is a link to a new startup video showing the difference between the previous peaking (right engine) and the now added non peaking (left engine)readouts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB4woKhvmCQ&feature=player_embedded
AGain I must emphasise that I never said that readouts will be 100% like those seen in reality, but I don´t find current state to be that far off.
Here is an excerpt of the checklist regarding propeller lever position for startup:
* start of Quote *
*PROPELLER LEVERS: FORWARD
(In the Twin Otter, starting the engines with the propellers forward (as opposed to
feather) allows a cooler start, and will result in a stabilized Ng of approximately 52%, as
opposed to 48% if in feather.)
*end of Quote *
I have no doubts about Your knowledge about the PT6A engine, but often in aviation there are no fixed rules telling in what exact sequence things should be done, neither are there any firm answers to how certain controls should be set.
If an ariline has good experience with starting the engines in feathered mode, cause that gives them some advances for them in the enviroment they use it, then the checklist does not tell that they cannot do so.
The checklist we use as a base, has been chosen cause it has alot of notes telling what and why.
Finn Jacobsen
(Aerosoft developer)
They won me over and continue to do so with Airbus X. They're continuing it's development to this day, offering updates even though they certainly don't have to.
I'll certainly be taking a look a the TO.
->Prop lever position on startup, a little discription:
Finn,
engine oil pressure forces the propeller into fine pitch angle, so your propeller governing needs oil pressure to move the blades against an mechanical spring forcing into feather direction. That is why the blades are feathered in C&D condition. The oil pump is mounted at the engines accessory gearbox. The pump is connected into N1 unit to be able to deliver oil pressure by engaging the starter. The starter drives the N1.
So you need a certain N1 RPM to produce enough oil pressure to move the blades at startup.
So i said, prop lever is moved FWD a few seconds after N1 RPM has build up. The effect is the same like the one from your checklist. Why? Your lever in full FWD position prior starter engage, but has no effect until reching a minimum N1 generating oil pressure.
In my version you destress the governing mechanism until N1 oil pressure has build up within the startup proccess.
additional:
There are several couterweights and springs active. I did not want to give a complete and PT6A specific description. This is a very short overview to understend what works behind the lever so you can read out answers you need.
Kind regards
I perfectly know how constantspeed props work.
The issue here is that You told that the only proper way of starting the engines is to set prop levers at feathered position whereas I told You that this isn't the case backed up by real world procedures.
So we are both right regarding proper way of setting the prop lever. while there is a reasoning behind Your procedure i guess the outcome has very little difference. during runup of the engine towards idle speed, oiol ressure might be low, but so are the forces on the centrifugal acting counterweights.
According to my checklist, starting the engines with prop levers full forward with make a cooler startup, thus create less wear on the engines and the lower torque buildup will create less wear on the gearbox I assume.
I see no reason to continue this debate - bottom line is that both ways of starting is allowed and also used.
It would be nice to know who exactly You are and what kind of experience You have on turboprops - as I said, I have no doubts that You are knowledgable, but further refrence would be nice.
Finn Jacobsen
(Aerosoft developer)
Laste quote:
"When the engine is started again, the pilot has the option of starting the engine with the propellers in feather, or pushing the propeller levers up and allowing the engine to come out of feather during the start. The gas generator section doesn't really "care" which method is used, as it makes no difference to the start process. However, some prefer to leave the propeller in feather to ensure better oil flow for the gas generator during the engine start...because oil pressure is required to move the propeller. Again, it's a choice, and you may find that some aircraft have different procedures than others for the engine start process."
Finn
That is right.
I am an "aircraft maintenance certifying staff" licenced for others than the Twin Otter and/or PT6A. I am licenced at other P&WC engines and other types of aircraft.
In my few leisure am a customer who only want to pay for well done products for my FSX.
Regards
Additional:
I wanted to organize PT6A documents by a former colleague for another FSX developer because i like his well done addons since years.
The former colleague gave no feedback until today, what a shame. So if your question would be to be able to give very specific and professional documents - i do not have them by hand, sorry.
I am willing to assist professional high quality developements i want to assist, but due to the fact i wrote above, im am only willing when products are in developement where i am licenced in. So i can directly answer questions and have all informations about all the systems in every detail. To be dependent on other people and be the broker i do not like. When i want to help, then direct with my "types".
Sorry.
Kind regards
Hmm I must have missed something...
I don´t recall any of my posts here where about asking for help understanding how it should work.
Finn
Hi Finn,
you are right, but here you would have the answer if you in case wanted to ask.. ;-)
Regards
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